What's Working in Marketing™: Digging into The Future of Snap for Marketers with Matt McGowan, General Manager of Canada at Snap

‍What's Working in Marketing™ is a podcast where we uncover what’s working across the digital landscape by tapping into the world’s best data-backed research and through candid conversations with industry experts. Join us if you're ready to learn what's working when it comes to your marketing efforts.

On this episode we spoke with Matt McGowan, the General Manager of Canada at Snap, the parent company for well-known brands like Snapchat, Spectacles, Bitmoji, and Zenly. We discuss how Snap is opening up new doors to marketers through innovative technology like AR and unrivaled engagement amongst individuals aged 13-34. Matt helps position the performance opportunity for advertisers on Snapchat, and he also explains their approach to areas like original content/show, content authenticity, and data privacy. Snapchat continues to grow fast, so why the heck is it still such a big unknown for so many marketers?

You can listen to What's Working in Marketing™ – A Podcast by RightMetric wherever you get your podcasts — including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Tune In, iHeartRadio, and Pocket Casts.

Here's a full transcript of our conversation with Matt:

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Charlie Grinnell: Welcome to What's Working in Marketing, a podcast for marketers that uncovers what's working across the digital landscape by tapping into the world's best data-backed research and through candid conversations with industry experts. I'm your host, Charlie Grinnell. All right on this episode, I'm joined by Matt McGowan, general manager of Canada at Snap. Matt, thank you very much for joining me today.

‍Matt McGowan: Really good to be here. Thanks for having me, Charlie.

‍Charlie Grinnell: I usually start by opening up these episodes by going back to the beginning. I think it's really important to just get an understanding of your career to date. And so you've had a really... When I looked you up and started to dig into your background, you've worked in a lot of different places, and I'd love it if you could start there because I think that'll set the stage for the conversation that we're going to have. So, why don't we start there?

‍Matt McGowan: I've been fortunate enough to have a rather robust career that's taken me to three continents, and it's taking me from an entry level role through to regional leadership where I sit today. I've been really fortunate, but I guess as a born and bred New Yorker who's turned Torontonian, I found myself working with founders, C-suite execs, venture capitalists, private equity lawyers, accountants, so on and so forth, with those large Fortune 500s and smaller businesses around the world. And I must say today, I'm fortunate enough to sit on top of Snap Canada. We're the company that owns Snapchat and Bitmoji, Venly and Spectacles, and a few other properties. I've never been more excited about my career. And I know we're going to talk about Snap, so I can leave it there, I think.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Let's talk about the Snap story in Canada. I think when you and I first got in touch, I was really excited to talk to you about Snap, Snapchat, Spectacles, all the things, just because I feel like from a marketing perspective, it is part of a marketing mix for marketers, but I feel like most marketers I talk to, it's something that they feel that they don't know a ton about. So, that's why I was like, oh my gosh, I got to get Matt on here to see what's up and see how marketers should be bringing it into their marketing mix. So, why don't we just start with the Snap story in Canada? You mentioned before we started recording that it started with the acquisition of Bitmoji and how has it grown from there, can you expand on that?

‍Matt McGowan: Yeah, for sure. So, I like to say Snap planted its flag here in Canada with the acquisition of Bitmoji, which is a Toronto tech story, and which today is still run by its original founders within Snap here out of Toronto. So, we've gone from those humble days about five years ago to now we have a full suite of colleagues and employees here in country, about 160 in total, covering everything from product and engineering to sales and marketing and measurements and most importantly, creative. We have a rather strong creative strategy team here, and we like to think of ourselves... It's actually one of the traits with which we hire, is kind, smart and creative, so we're very focused on that. It's been a really fun, interesting ride that I've been lucky enough to be a part of for about half of it.

‍Matt McGowan: So, I've been with Snap about half of its five years here in Canada, and it's taken us to some really cool places. Just if we think about Snap today in Canada, we reach over 10 million people which is a significant portion like 85% of the 13 to 24 audience and slightly lower around like 75%, 80% of the 13 to 34 audience. And that demographic that Gen Z, early millennial is our bread and butter. It's the focus of everything we do, we were built for them. And similarly so, as you move around the world, reaching over 500 million people, vast majority of which are Gen Z and early millennials. And I think that audience has never been more important to brands today for a variety of reasons. So, when you talk about like... Sure, everyone knows of Snap, we have a rather large brand globally, we have a rather small team.

‍Matt McGowan: So, it might be one of the largest brands in the world, but we only have about 5,000 employees. And like I said, 160 here in Canada, so nowhere near our peers. That said, what I do find is because we reached this young audience, the leadership that's... Leadership comes in all ages and sizes, but the reality is most of leadership across Canada is over 34, and they're not on the platform. So, that is a struggle that we deal with every day is trying to remind those who are making the decisions that those we're trying to reach love and spend a lot of their time on our platform versus our peers. So, it's a struggle we're going at it methodically and we're making a lot of progress, but we have a long way to go.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Totally fair. And I think I want to dive a little bit deeper into the audience that spends time on Snap. Who are they? And what should marketers really be excited about when they're thinking about like Snapchat as a platform as an avenue for marketing? What's the things that come to mind and maybe talk a little bit about how different marketers have used it? Have you seen different funnel stages that sort of thing?

‍Matt McGowan: So, I would say there's a couple different ways to answer that question. Like I said, our audience is primarily and it's the vast majority of almost all of, and much larger than our peers in that 13 to 34 age, that age range, and like I said, everything we do is focused on them so what we do is we see a lot of success. And if we think about the marketing funnel, I know it's maybe not the best way to think about things these days, but we can envision that funnel, we find that dollars spent on Snap are rather equal, whether they're upper funnel brand, awareness dollars or lower funnel performance/click attribution-type dollars. And that was something that surprised me when I got to Snap.

‍Matt McGowan: I didn't realize things like augmented reality and even mobile video for that matter could lead to such efficiencies and performance for advertisers, so that was something that definitely was eye opening to me when I started. And when you think about the clients who spend on Snap, it's a wide range. You got your Fortune 500, 95% of them are active on Snap and more and more are turning always on Snap. And then you got your long tail and by long tail I mean that's mid-market brands through to the smaller SMBs. There's been a lot of focus on that. We know that they have different requirements than the larger enterprises, but we are every day making improvements to offer them a solution that works for them. And we're seeing a lot of success in those type of clients growing, coming along with us and joining the platform.

‍Matt McGowan: And again, they're joining it for a variety of reasons. Some want to be innovative and try something new, some want to diversify their spend away from the 800-pound gorillas in the space, some want to reach Gen Z and millennials where they're the happiest and where they spend most of their time, it's a wide range of reasons but the reality is we have really strong retention rates with our advertisers and our Snapchatters. And by the way, I refer to Snapchatters not as employees but as those who use the platform. I think that distinction is worth noting because it's literally the most important piece of the puzzle.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Totally. And so for all the marketers listening out there trying to make sense if Snap should fit into their marketing mix, what are some best-in-class examples of maybe a small brand or one of those larger brands using Snap and the ecosystem within their marketing mix?

‍Matt McGowan: So Charlie, you're on the West Coast, right?

‍Charlie Grinnell: I'm on the West Coast, in Vancouver.

‍Matt McGowan: So clearly, it's out there with you and that's a... I know they're opening up stores now, I think I saw one on street here in Toronto recently, but they've been with us for years, and I actually am a customer, I'm showing my glasses to all those who are not on video. But companies clearly, quickly understood that one of the best ways to reach our audience, to reach that younger Gen Z audience who had yet to really build a lot of brand loyalty in their lives and might go with a new entrant, because there's a lot of established players in the glasses space, sunglasses and reading glasses and whatnot, so clearly leaned in great customer, they use our augmented reality products to do sizing and fitting and glasses virtually through your phone so that when you order your glasses, you get the right size with the right look in the frame.

‍Matt McGowan: I got it right the first time and I have a big head let me tell you, it's not easy getting it right the first time. But then I could tell you stories about Tim Horton's, Bells, Rogers of the world, the banks, RBC, Starbucks, apparel like Lululemon another West Coast phenomena. So, it's a wide range. We have auto dealers on the platform that own regional auto dealerships around Canada, the government clients, the list goes on. In five years, a good amount of time to really get you the word out and if it's not a sector that we're fully entrenched in, it's a sector that we have some really good wins in with a few clients and we're trying to go deeper broadening out the client base.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Totally. That makes a lot of sense. I want to switch gears here. This is a bit of a random question, but what's the one thing that Snap is involved in that you don't think gets enough publicity or that marketers are sleeping on or are overlooking. There are so many things and when you and I were prepping for this episode, I was sitting there going holy shit I forgot about that or I forgot about that and so what's one thing, you're in it day in day out that you look at and you're this is really cool and this doesn't get enough air time?

‍Matt McGowan: Wow. I love that question. Again, it's hard to pick one, but let me start with I think safety and privacy is a big thing. When Snap first launched just over a decade ago, everyone thought the fact that there was ephemerality in the messaging platform, it must be something to do with there being nefarious intent or something that. Reality, it had nothing to do with that. We lead with privacy in everything we do including things like when people sign up to the platform, they're not opted into a lot of stuff, they have to actually go about that themselves. It's almost opt out by default. And for us in this world where privacy's never been more important, a lot of the tenants with which we built our business.

‍Matt McGowan: Well, you could say I guess they're being viewed very differently today than they might have been back then. So, safety and privacy's big, it's a big thing for us also because the demographic of our audience. And that's probably one thing that picks up that doesn't get enough press in my mind, but I could add more, I'm just thinking out loud here. Built off the safety and privacy is ethical design, so there's no comment, there's no open newsfeed. We think of commenting as a vector for bullying with our audience. Our users aren't trying to build followings and get likes, they're posting an authentic picture or video or even words that they know is representative of them in the moment, they're expressing it to a small group of friends who they're connected with and then it's gone.

‍Matt McGowan: It's a virtual water cooler. It's like passing someone on the street and having that moment that you feel really good about because Hey, you get home and you're Hey, you know who I bumped into today? It was so good to see him, her whatever. So, that's happening on Snap. And there's more, we can go into way more, but mental health, Here For You platform, our friend checkup platform is super interesting. Goes on and on.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Well, one of the things I wanted to talk about that you and I chatted about the episode was how big Snapchat is getting into shows almost a TV channel. And so not really just IP that partners with creators, but you have these channels around broadcasting mainstream programming like the Olympics or Entertainment Tonight. Can you just expand on that and just talk about what that means for the platform as a whole but also for marketers?

‍Matt McGowan: So, you asked a question earlier like what do I wish people knew about Snap or media buyers knew about Snap that they have overlooked. We're not all UGC. We have broadcast at content on our platform. And by that like you said, Entertainment Tonight Canada, Big Brother Canada and Paradise I think I can't remember, cooking shows, the CBC. So, we have something called our discover platform. When you open Snapchat, you'll see five tabs across the bottom. When you open Snapchat, you looking at your camera or a camera company first and foremost, no feeds, none of that stuff just the world in front of you. And if you swipe to the left, you end up on our discover platform and in that platform, you have access to all news, entertainment content, sports, so on and so forth.

‍Matt McGowan: It's all short form, so we're talking three to five minutes. It's scripted, it's unscripted, but the big distinction between discover and most other platforms out there on the web or on your phone I should say, is that it's curated. It's more Netflix. I can't put anything up there without it being vetted. So by design, our platform tends to be safer and curated I think is a good word. And so here in Canada, we have over... It's funny and this is another thing, three years ago I think we had one or two media partners in Canada and now we have about 30 so we are moving in the right direction but they include Rogers, Bell, they include smaller companies like Dipli and Underknown, they include the CBC, they include Chorus which we just announced a couple weeks ago.

‍Matt McGowan: And they're bringing their shows that are available on broadcast to Snap and cut originally for Snap, so in the short form. So, they can take a 30 minute broadcast on the CBC and break it down to a four minute highlights, which is what our audience seems to want. And I tell you, it's a big differentiator. And we see shows go big on Snapchat. They get tens of thousands many more unique viewers on a weekly basis. And it almost puts TV to shame sometimes, not that I'm trying to do that because I'm a big fan, I got a few of them in my house, but the reality is that there's a whole nother world of entertainment available on Snap that most media buyers aren't aware of.

‍Charlie Grinnell: And for marketers, the opportunity there is that as more and more of these media companies are putting content onto Snap, more people are going to spend time there and from a marketing perspective, there's the opportunity for them to have their brand show up around that, is that the idea?

‍Matt McGowan: Yeah. So, it's free to Snapchatters across the country and it's monetized via commercials and we have deals with these media partners. Rogers, Bell, Underknown, Dippoli, CBC whoever it is, Urbania Media in Quebec. We have deals with them that we do a rep share. So, for every dollar spent we're kicking half of it back to them and we're supporting local media here in Canada. I should say we are a local media company in Canada ourselves, wholly owned by a company out of the United States in California, but we are registered here across all provinces and our local media business ourself who are working to support local media in Canada, our peers with revenue opportunities and it's working.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense and so can you dig a bit deeper, share a little bit as to what you know you've mentioned you guys are really leaning into this media company side of thing. What shows are you looking to create over the coming years? You've talked about sports, you've talked cooking, can you share a little bit of that?

‍Matt McGowan: So, 100%. We are looking for specific types of shows for sure. We're looking for meaningful partnerships with Canadian media businesses of all sizes. You'll find dramadies and dramas, you'll find documentaries, you'll find cooking shows and reality shows, you'll find news and sports, but the reality is we're looking for shows that resonate with that younger Gen Z, early millennial audience. And I guess I can even say, and we're being very scripted about it, including in the press recently we've launched a five, two, three program, we call it. Five, two, three was the original address in Venice, California the first Snap office and that program is focused on giving a voice to smaller minority owned businesses in Canada and around the world. So, we're partnering with them to surface them just right next to Chorus, Bell, whoever and we're having a lot of success with that and it's amazing how many of those businesses are out there. And I've spent quite a bit of time in the few of them, it's absolutely blows my mind the content they're producing. So, that's definitely a part of it.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Yeah, totally. And so I want to switch gears here a little bit more talking about the future of Snap and Snapchat and Spectacles and everything. Where things heading in 2022 and beyond? Again, if you're a marketer sitting here listening going, Hey, I know about Snapchat, I know there's a significant amount of people there in this demographic that I'd to potentially target as a marketer, what are some of the things that users should be excited about and what are some of the things that maybe marketers should be excited about?

‍Matt McGowan: So, growth first and foremost, we're moving fast something like 20% global audience growth year on year and here in Canada like I said, up to just over 10 million in Canada, that's exciting if you ask me, especially in this world right now, augmented reality and that may play into the shows, but it definitely plays into the advertising, while you could take your online video as your mobile video assets and upload them to Snap and our self-service ads manager and run them, what we find is what makes us very unique other than our audience and everything else we've talked about is that we are the world's leaders in augmented reality and while AR for the most part used to be a fun toy, remember those dog ears and whatnot, it's becoming a tool for consumers around the world, in this new world order where we're a little bit hesitant to dip our finger in the tester at Sephora and try on the makeup, because we don't know whose finger was in there before, we can do that while you're on the go on Snapchat using augmented reality.

‍Matt McGowan: In this new world where you don't want to put the glasses on or you don't want to I don't know jump into a store, you can do that online to try the pants on or your jacket or other accessories. So, we're continuing to double down an augmented reality. We're seeing a lot of success there. There's over 200 million Snapchatters that use augmented reality every day.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Wow.

‍Matt McGowan: About 75% of Canadians on the platform are using it as well and they're not just using this to have fun and chat, communicate with the friends, they're using this to help them make their lives easier, solving math problems, finally figuring out what kind of a dog you have, what's that tree in my backyard, best route to get to work, Snap is a beautiful social map, we can talk about that super unique. So, the reality is I think what you're going to see is and I'm not really good with predictions, I've never really-

‍Charlie Grinnell: The good thing about predictions is that you can be wrong. It's you just get to stake your claim.

‍Matt McGowan: I like that, I appreciate that. But I do think what we'll see is and there's a lot of data to support this Pricewaterhouse came out with the stat, I have to remember the number but it was 75 or something percent of consumers on the planet will have used AR by 2025. So, we don't reach 75% of consumers on the planet, maybe one day we will but the reality is we do reach 75% of that 13 to 34 audience and they are using AR and my guess is we're going to see increased adoption because it works. And as we continue to invest in the camera remember we're a camera company, it's just mind blowing what the camera can do for consumer to help them pick out the right size, right style, sit in the car they want without ever having to go sit in it, you name it. So, I think we're going to see more focus on the camera. It's the fastest way to communicate pictures and videos speak hundreds or thousands of words and I'm very thankful ever for a camera company.

‍Charlie Grinnell: I remember when we were chatting be for the episode, you mentioned how the camera is replacing the keyboard and hearing you talk through AR and I think for the past, Snap was early to the game in AR, but now to your point we are starting to see that mass adoption of it, can you talk a little bit about how is the business thinking about what's unique is that you do have a hardware product associated with the software product with Spectacles. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you think that's going to shape things moving forward or power of having both of those things and what that allows you to do versus some other companies in this space?

‍Matt McGowan: When I think back when I was in college I didn't have a mobile phone. I did know a couple people who had those car phones, remember those things?

‍Charlie Grinnell: Yeah. You were a baller if you had one of those.

‍Matt McGowan: I was not, but I always wanted a car phone. I had no idea what I really wanted was a mobile phone, like I had no idea. And I think what we're at, we've been using these devices they've had regular adoption probably since 1998 or there abouts in the Western world and about 10 years ago, it was 11 years ago, someone threw a camera on the back of the phone. Evan and Bobby founded Snap six months later. The second they saw that camera, it was like, wow, boom like texting's going out the window, we can communicate way faster than their hitting words, typing words and swiping words or whatever. So, when I think about hardware, I think that the phone's good, it's gotten smaller, it's gotten powerful, fits in your pocket, but it's not perfect.

‍Matt McGowan: And if we think about anything in the history of time, the innovation is what drives the economy forward. So, it's hard to think that the phone is the last form factor we're going to use to communicate between ourselves. Anyone who thinks that is not thinking that once the phone... The phone has already evolved so much from that thing on the wall with the tiny little wiggly wire and all that jazz. So, we think that there's probably a better way. It's not going to come tomorrow, but we're invested heavily via our Spectacles team and a pair of glasses basically that have cameras on them that can see the world around you and that maybe you can augment the world around you while you're using them.

‍Matt McGowan: And we're on our fourth iteration and there's more to come for sure. And the way I look at it is we're investing in what we hope to be, what we think might be I should say the future form factor of the mobile phone. And I guess when people start to think about it they're like well, no, everyone's not going to wear glasses. We don't expect everyone in the world to wear them, just like everyone in the world doesn't use the same phone. But if it's an option over time, people may become more comfortable with these new form factors and these new form factors may accelerate the adoption of augmented reality. And while AR is growing fast and there's a lot of companies out there leaning into it today. And I'd to think as you said, we were the first in order to maintain our position in AR we need to be thinking five to 10 years out.

‍Charlie Grinnell: That makes a lot of sense. I want you to take your Snapchat hat off for a sec, your Snap, your Snapchat hat off, you've been around the block and have a diverse background in consulting and ad tech and now working in a platform itself, what are you most excited about when it comes to just marketing brands today? Completely separate, you've sat on all different sides of the fence and so I always like to ask guests this question, what gets you fired up?

‍Matt McGowan: Can I say Snapchat?

‍Charlie Grinnell: You can say Snapchat but a non Snapchat thing where you're like Hey, I think that is pretty awesome.

‍Matt McGowan: So, listen there's a lot to be excited about. Privacy protocols, level playing fields, renewed interests and Gen Z and millennials, the world is changing fast. But from a marketing and advertising perspective, I think one of the biggest things that sometimes goes unnoticed and it's been developing for years is the direct to the consumer movement. So, whether you're a CPG company or a more electronics company or an automotive company, you can go down the list sectors are starting to, brands are paying more and more attention today to first party data and connecting with their consumer. And for a long time, they couldn't they had to work through a middleman. So, when I think about what gets me excited, I'm really excited about the multitude of channels that brands now have at their disposal to communicate and connect with their customers. It's uncanny and we're watching this in real time develop which means that it often slides through the cracks, but if you go back in time 10 years, it was a different world.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Totally.

‍Matt McGowan: And I think if you jump forward in time 10 years, you're going to see this thing play out and it's going to be really interesting and there's going to be a lot of winners and losers, but the reality is the movement has started and brands have start to build the capabilities and the technology and the knowhow and the resources that connect with the consumer and don't necessarily need to rely on middlemen anymore and in that vein that has a lot of implications.

‍Charlie Grinnell: It's interesting hearing you say that, I think back to whenever you're caught up as a marketer thinking about there's all the latest tech and channels and we need to get more sophisticated, when you zoom out and you're this thing is 10 years old or 12 years old. Like when did the iPhone come out? That was like a big turning point. Just remember that we are in the complete infancy of this thing and even I think back to 2015, seven years ago, five years ago, it was a completely different... The things that marketers focused on the way that consumers behaved, all these different pieces. And so it is going to be interesting to see where it goes in two years, five years, 10 years. That's doubling the age of it is just going to be ridiculous.

‍Matt McGowan: You could think about 5G or now what are we talking about? 6G. You could talk about processing speeds, you can talk about connectivity. There are so many things, the world's moving fast, Snap was named by fast company, the most innovative company in the world last year I think it was. And for that I'm proud that those in the know are taking notice, but the reality is companies need to innovate and companies are in... Not to date myself, but I went through this in the.com boom. I lived in San Francisco, I watched what happened. I watched when the largest shoe company in the world was not Nike was some other company. And we watched these things happen and unfold in front of our eyes back then and it's happening again.

‍Matt McGowan: The pivot to the internet was a big deal, and then the internet went mobile right. And now we're pivoting again to laying computing on the world in front of us so that it's more ingrained in our lives and is more valuable to us as individuals, whether we're trying to connect with our friends and family, make a purchase, do research or whatever it is. And travel and opportunities are endless. So, you're right man it's been... What are we 2022? It's been 22 years. That's nothing, it's absolutely nothing and I hope to be here in 22 years in 2044. I can't imagine how we were going to... I can't imagine how it's all going to be played out and I think that's what gets me excited.

‍Charlie Grinnell: I think the thing that excites me hearing you talk through all those things because you obviously have a different point of view is I can't help but think about we saw that there was the internet, then there was laptops, then there was phones, now we're starting to see wearables with Apple Watch or Spectacles or Google Glass or all the different products and I think what's going to be interesting to your point is how the internet or digital is being laid on the world through both hardware and software and the seamless integration of that. And almost the miniaturization of tech so that you don't even really know that... You're not focused on the tech, you're focused on the experience through the tech.

‍Charlie Grinnell: And so that's an interesting thing, that's why I get so excited about Snap because you do have both the hardware and the software components and not a lot of the companies have that. Some of the big ones do, but a lot of them don't. And so I think that's a big differentiator is being able to own the rails so to speak in terms of access point.

‍Matt McGowan: It's its well said, I think 10 years from now, we're going to look back on these times and be wow, how clunky was everything? And that's the way I remember just think about 10 years ago, it was really clunky. You got one file type, you had to convert it to open it, things have come a long way. So, miniaturization, more seamless interaction use cases it's going to be there. And I think that's why things like privacy and security are so important because we got to get it right now, otherwise let's face it things are going to get really messy. And I'm proud of Snap it's probably the number one thing we focus on every day.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Well, and to your point thinking about setting those foundations, I almost think back to it's like whatever 150, 200 years ago when setting up what are the pillars and frameworks and principles of society that got set up, it's the same thing. And I think we're seeing this play out from a political government side of things with privacy regulations, how do you regulate this thing that doesn't recognize land borders? What is the right thing for us to do? What is right for consumers? And what is right for businesses? And all those different things. And it's fascinating that we're living through a time where these things are going to be set up probably and it's going to set the way things happen in 20, 30, 40 years from now and I don't know. I think about that. It's like imagine working in television when the TV was invented, that's amazing.

‍Matt McGowan: Wow. No, exactly radio, printing press, 100% I agree with you. We need to get it right now and one of the ways to do that if you're in the media world or marketing world or advertising world however want to look at it is to become an expert on as many platforms as possible and to understand the ins and outs and the strengths of all of them and that way because listen there's no guarantees how things are going to play out, but I do think I'm betting on the right horse.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Fair enough. Well, as we start to wind down this episode, one of the questions that I always ask guests is how do you stay up to date on business and marketing? Who are you following? What are you reading? Who are you listening to give you some background? I actually dropped out of university. So, I went to university for about a month and then the way that I got into marketing was through reading and lurking and tearing things down across the internet, so I always want to ask people what are you listening to? What are you reading? What are you following?

‍Matt McGowan: It's funny you say that because I had been in the tech space since... I was on Wall Street until 1999, 98 I think and then I got transferred to California, San Francisco and I ended up falling in love with tech and the internet and made a massive career change and all that. And I found myself mid-career about 10 years ago working for Incisive Media, I helped build the business and we owned a platform, clickZ as it's often understood. We own Search Engine Watch and Search Engine Strategies and I ended up being the publisher of a lot of these friends and I got to travel from city to city including here to Toronto meeting with these proprietors, entrepreneurs, building these digital agencies and software companies and whatnot.

‍Matt McGowan: And I was just so impressed and that to me for a long time was the way I kept up was going to conferences and reading the trades. But that's changed. I think over time, your behaviors change and the information that's available to you refreshes. So, podcasts like this one What's Working, love it. The Feed another good one with AmberMac, Marketing News is a good one, Mission Critical at the Base Street Bowl is a good one. I even listen to Built to Sell every once in a while, I'm a ferocious reader so Morning Brew Newsletter, Ad Age, Adweek Media in Canada, all those are in my inbox in the morning and I start my day every day, sometimes it's five minutes, sometimes it's an hour. It really depends on the news day and my a schedule, but just quickly reading through a lot of them. But it's not all work, I think I like to keep up on things more theoretical-

‍Charlie Grinnell: Totally.

‍Matt McGowan: Those transferable skills that I think we all need to remember because it's not just about being an expert in an individual industry, it's about having those skills that will take you farther in life and so I've read a few books lately, which I've actually bought some of them for my team. Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art is amazing highly recommend. There is a book Factfulness I found really interesting 10 Reasons We're Wrong About the World and Why Things Are Better Than You Think. It was really interesting.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Interesting. Factfulness, I'm going to add that to my list and write it down.

‍Matt McGowan: And then add this one too, The Power of Bad by John Tierney. The Power of Bad I ripped through that. We've had a lot of time on our hands I think this last two years living in Canada, which has allowed me to focus on my kids. It's also allowed me to follow my passion of mentorship. I work with Big Brothers, Big Sisters, Canada, I'm in the mentor program at Adweek and Elevate here in Toronto. All of that, I found that time by not having to commute and not having dinners and events to go to and all that stuff. So, I've also found time to read. So, The Power of Bad is a good one. It speaks to how bad things can... It's just amazing how one indiscretion can change your life forever even if you've been the most model citizen in the world. And I highly recommend it, it was eye opening. I had not thought about bad, I'm using air quotes now for those listening. I had not thought about bad in this way, so yeah.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Interesting. Well I'm going to add that to list. Last question for you, what's the best place for people to find you online or get ahold of you?

‍Matt McGowan: I'm on all channels. You can search Matt McGowan Snapchat, but I'm on Snapchat as McGowan Matt. I'm on LinkedIn as the user name McGowan. So, forward slash McGowan. I'm on Twitter as at Matt underscore McGowan. Any of those are great. I think we talked about this, Charlie I try to respond to everybody, I really do. Especially if it's thoughtful. And thoughtful is very subjective. I know, but if you're just going to pitch me for no reason and we have no relationship, I don't necessarily know if that's thoughtful. I try to respond to everyone. And I also try to meet three new people every week. So, I've been doing this for two decades and it has worked for me because-

‍Charlie Grinnell: I am going to steal that.

‍Matt McGowan: I always learned something new. I don't care if you're in high school or if you are the CEO of a Fortune 500. To me, it's I like to say hi, and it's never been easier now that we're all online.

‍Charlie Grinnell: Yeah. Well, that's how you and I got together for this episode. So with that, I want to thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. Super interesting conversation and have a good rest of the day.

‍Matt McGowan: Charlie, thank you so much. I can't wait to listen.

‍Charlie Grinnell: For show notes, other episodes and more content. Check out, RightMetric.co. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks for listening.